that is a world where more people prosper. that is our sow. see you next week. >> go to basspro.com for more of this. sound the alarm. because americans are fired up. not just over broken obama care promises, but over obama care forcing people to buy coverage they don't need, like maternity care. well, man up, says a topop demoat in the senate. >> somebody sai well, gee, now i've got -- i have to take this policy that covers mernity care. but my wife and i aren't having any more children. and i got to thinking about that. i thought, well, you know what? maybe because my wife and i don't have any more children, and they're grown up, maybe shouldn't have to pay property taxes to pay for my local schools. we're better than that in this country.

we're talking about being a part of our society. sameay with health car it is a lue system. >> so what do you think? is he right? buying medical care you don't need is part of america's value system? hi, everyone. i'm brenda buttner. this is "bulls and bears." and here they are, the bulls and bears this week. ry b. smith, tracy byrnes, jonas max ferris, john layfield, and david mercer. john, paying for maternity care or other coverage you don't need is all part of america's value system? >> not part of the america i understand. it's part of a socialist system. if that's how you want to view health care, that it's a right, that you don't have to pay for it. we pay taxes to pay for defense. 's not fair to compare it to health care where peopl have the ability to pay for what they use. how about we take the 65% homeowrship right now and have them pay a double mortgage or

extra mortgage to pay for the 35% who don't have homes? where does this end, and where does it -- somewhere, we realize health care is not necessarily a specific right. >> well, the problem is, david, that you are paying for things you may not necessarily need, and it's costing more too. is that part of the vae system? >> well, i believe that the whole objective of the affordable care act is to lower costs overall to the economy and to individua. but secondly, with regard to the obama care and what it affords in terms of benefits, look, insurance itself, none of us y need -- a lot of us may not need toave a payout on our insuranc but we still pay foror it and we may never use it. but the time may come when a catastrophic event occurs, an accident occurs, or a diagnosis comes where that needs to be

vered under obama care or the affordable care act. and so whether you want it or you think you'll need it or whatever, at least the american people know that everybody is getting covered and has access to universal health care. and that is the overall goal of health care. >> david, i'm pretty sure john layfield doesn't need maternity care. just going with that. >> nor do i need maternity care. but i don't mind paying for it as part of my overall insurance premium. >> but the analysis to property taxes is wrong. you get to vote. as a matter of fact, i just went to the voting bootthis weekend and voted on stuff happening in my area. and i get to move if i don't want to pay taxes. i can move to florida orexas where kroi don't have to deal w this stuff. i think it's wrong to pull an analogy like this. you can't even compare apples to oranges here. >> but, tracy, you can pay the fine and not get insurance if you don't like it. and en -- >> that's not the --

>> ry b., you go tolorida or texas, you have property taxes. but u can move to a different school district where they may have higher or lower taxes. there is some choice there. is there a choice with obama care? >> well, not as i see it, although i can now tell -- i can see the left's new spin, which david revealed, where you can opt out of it. that's a new one. i'll give him that. guess i have not thought that i can just say, hey, i'm not going to -- >> that's not an out. >> but i had not heard that from your side, so i guesthat's part of it. but on the other end, i suppose if a vast majority of pple opt out of it, the whole thing crumbles then anyway because there's not going to be enough money payingin. but that's besides the point. on the property tax issue, you're right, brenda. you have to pay it virtually everywhere, unless you live in an apartment or something like that. but the other -- the flip side of the property tax is, in theory, you get back value.

i live in a high property tax area. the public schools are good. but the property itself should be worth more than in an area where the property taxes are a little bit lower. as far as, you know, david mentioned, well, you're paying in and you might not need thi stuff in the insurance, yes, but with regular insurance that you purchase on the private market you can opt what things to get. you can cose a super high deductible if you want. is is a kind of one size fits all. it's forced on everyone down a path which according to all the polls most people n't really like. >> jonas, what do you think? is this part of the amecan value system to pay for these things that we may not necessarily need? >> unfortunately, i actually think tom harken put it better than obama put it. the rationale for it. first of all, we could have voted out of it. you could have voted for romney and the senate and it would have been turne around. so the majority voted for extending and having this ridiculous rule. so we can't complain. that is america.

my up to just voted for a new stadium in the town that i have to pay for. i don't have kids, and i do not care about the sports in the community. but i overpaid for the house because thproperty values were inflated because of the great school in the town. unfortunately, that'america. you have to pay to pay for other people who can'tafford. >> wait a minute. john -- >> let me fish. most americans can'tfford school. 1/3 of americans can't afford school. itould be like $20,000 a kid. so everybody has a house. and we disproportionately charge the bigger homeowners, not the people with most kids, to pay for your kid to go to school because you can't afford private school. i don't like it, but that's how it works. >> john, basically, you can mov if you don't want to pay for that stadium. but with obama care, the is no choice. we are increasingly seeing there is no choice. >> no. there is no option. look, we also pay taxes and that pays for the salaries of 535

congressmen and thatenefits absolutely nobody in america. so there is aprecedent for this. look, we a being forced to pay this. and where does this end? where does it end that we're going to be reping this thing? the reason i'm going to have to pay for maternity coverage whether i opt out or not it's going to be baked in somewhere, because you're covering people through subsidies who cannot afford the health care insurance. that's an economicargument. but where does that end? does it end in disability, long-term unemployment insurance? at what point do we ask people to pay their own way when they are able? and that is a basic difference and ideology in the way that most people that believe in free markets see america as socialisee america. >> but i think that's the thing. there's no escape, right? i could go and research property taxes in florida an go live down there if it bothers me so much that i pay exorbitant amounts in new jersey, and sometimes i feel like i get nothing out of it. but i choose to live here.

i can't choose out of obama care, righ i mean, i have no choice. and i think that's the problem that everybody has. >> david -- >> you have different plans through obama care and through the exchanges, which you should research to get one that covers what your needs are. >> really, david? >> we could take the whole half-hour that. gary b., take it away. >> brenda, i could almost agree with senator harken if the greater good value systewas going to benefit everyone. but from what i am seeing right now, at the end of obama care, we'll actually have less people insured and overall we'll be paying higher premiums. so i'm not understanding -- ok. we got this forced market. if everyone was insured and premiums came down, i would say, ok, yeah, it worked out. it doesn't look like we're heading down that path. we'll be in worse shape than we e, which makes it doubly

annoying. >>s that that has to be the last word. the health care law enforcers back under fe. why the irs is ging $4 billion to. it could give taxpayers a stroke. spongebob gets the ax. but it's what he does next that coulcreate a sea change. >> you see, i've been doing some calculating and crunching the old numbers. and it turns out that i'll save a whole nickel if i cut your salary completely. you're canned. here's your pink slip. i'm giving you the ax. you're fired! "bulls and bears."

keep it right he on the fax news channel. s.o.s. irs. this time, it's for reportedly doling out $4 billion in tax refunds, to, get this, i.d. thieves, including 655 refunds to a single address in lithuania. what they could have bought, huh? and gary b., this is who's going to be enforcing the health care la >> it's sad, isn't it? i don't want to pick on the irs for the reasons jonas has hilighted. [ laughter ] >> i love the irs. they are good people there. but the problem is with any government agency, overseeing a big part of the administration of 20% of the economy, there's

going to be ways to fraud. you go down the list -- whether it's medicare, social security, medicaid, food stamps. anything -- even if hsswas running this or the department of education, there would be fraud, waste, inefficiency. unfortunately, that's what you get with a large government where the only goal is to build your department. the irs shouldn't be doing this. it should be the private sector again like we've said for, i guess, years now, that should be only involved in healthcare because they are thenly ones accountable to a bottom line. >> ok. gary b., you're safe for another year, i think. but john, how do you take this? they are going to be enforcing the health care law which is already ase're discovering pretty much a mess. what do you think of the irs getting in there? >> i should have listened to my friend, audited right now,

so i love the irs. they are underfunded and understaffed. it itough for them to prosecute and catch guys who are hiding and not paying their taxes. much less to do something with obama care. you have to start almost completely over to build a whole new infrastructure, so might as will do what gary b. is saying and hire a private company to do it. the government does not do things very well. >> tracy, you're a great accountant. >> but on behalf of the accountants of the world,don't shoot the messenger here. you get the congressional leaders that make up these rules. they don't know what they are doing. and then they send them to the irs and say, here, enforce them. and as gary said, they are on a shoestring budget. four people are working there at this point, they are so short staffed. and they have al of this extra stuff to do. it is so unfair, and ripe for fraud. no one is in the shop right now watching it. >> david, what do you think of that? >> i think it's never good news

when you have people trying to defraud thsystem. and that's something they'll have to combat. but luckily and ortunately, they have caught this. it's been flagged. and they are going to put measures in to prevent it from happening in the future. and already this year, as john alluded to, they have already caught about $12 billion in fraudulent claims that they will not ha go out. and so we can only hope that that continues, and that they start reducing the incident of it. but it's something that also the ivate sector has to endure and combat and spends billions of dollars trying to do so as well. >> ok. but jonas, let's get jonas in here, they have a really big jo in addition to what they're already doing. >> first of all, let's say the good -- the other panel should be saying good things about the irs before the october 15 deadline like i did, and they wouldn't be facing all of this. >> smart boy. >> first of all, look, the irs is not the perfect agency to implent this. th is a rdiculous day of

doing the health care thing. however, of all the gernment agencies, i give the irs the most credit. as an example. if you look at the amount of money that they handle there, the trillions of income, that's a very low fraud rate. and just personally, my amateur ca -- my amex card was frauded, and they had to pay that. that's real money of fraud to those companies. and that's high i.t. at those companies. i bet they have higher loss rates to fraud tn the irs. and that's t private sector. and healthcare.gov isn't going public. they won't get rich off the ipo like twitter this week. no one who is really good wants to work there on that. >> there is a corporate america. you don't have hat. and identity theft has actually increased year over year. 1.6 million people suffered it from this tax filing season

faces 1.2 million last year. i think it's getting worse. >> they had more losses in 2010 if i'm not mistaken. >> they did. >> last wod. thanks, guys. so no one's safe from the pink slip, not even the lovable sponge living in a pineapple under the sea. why this upcoming episod of "spongebob square pants" is fuelling debate among those living above the sea. living above the sea. ♪ ma announcer ] it's simple physics... a body at rest tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stain motion. staying active can actually ease arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult. prescription celebrexcan n

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you're fired! >> you're fired! >> i'm take it to go >> unemployment! >> that's part of monday's trailer for the show. his star fish friend, patrick, is said to say, don't worry, collecting unemployment is a great gig. but spongebob insists on hunting for a new job instead. tracy, you say this is exactly what our kids need to say today? >> i'm the first to tell you i'm not apongebob fan. >> what's wrong with you? >> i think he's so fresh. but i love that even with his pink slip, aka dress, that was a cute moment, he says, i've g to get a job. i can't live like this. this is exactly what the kids need to hear. this notion thathey are getting it from spongebob, who cares where they are getting it from? everything else they are hearing is so bad and convincing them

they should sit on the couch and collect the government dole. >> recession hits. bikini botto. fox news alert. which is the better role model? how can you say patrick when he is just sitting back there taking in all the government dole? >> well, i believe that spongebob is a protagonist is opposi and representing the values that we as americans all ke to think of in terms of hard work and making a good living and providing for our families. i think his friend, i think that's a little exaggerated caricature when, you know, you think of all the people that are trying to find work, that may be unemployed, and may be on support with regard to the health care -- excuse me, the inrance th they paid into to cover them when they are unemployed. so i think that spongebob is fine in that representation.

but i have a little bit of misgiving about his friend there. >> this isn't shakespeare. it's a carto. but really, spongebob or patrick? who is the role model you want your kids t be watching? >> well, obviously, d like them to be watching spongebob. but here's the problem, brenda. i think most of us are inherently lazy, and we take the path of least resistance. and when the path of least resistance is lined with gold, as the government has done, my gosh, since i've been growing up, it's becoming worse an worse with generous food stamps and healthy unemployment benefits, things like that, it's very easy to be the nonspongebob and to sit bac and say, you know what? i'm not going to work. brenda, wn you and i were growing up, we didn't have those options. you had to go out and get a job because there wasn't this althy food stamp program and things le that. so it's the government's problem. >> john, what do you say? which one? >> are we reallyoing to

chacterize americans as spongebob and nonspongebob? i only care what winnie the pooh has to say, by the way. i'm with david. most americans are like spongebob. i can't believe i just said that >> yes, yodid. and you said it on tape. >> that's right. they want to work. they don't want to get a handout. >> about 15 seconds t tell us what you think about this, if you've ever seen spongebob. i don't know. >> well, it's in international waters so labor laws don't appl but somebody has to stand up for the patricks of the world. ese programs don'tdisince ind n disincentivize people. >> we'll tal to you lat thanks, guys. and thanks to david for joining us. >> pleasure. pushing the minimum to the ma gainingsteam. the white house now backing hiking the minimum wage to $10 an hour. but could that have jobs taking a hike? @ç@çpçpçpç÷ñmhmhyhyhyh

predictions. gary b.? >> brenda, forget all the twitter stuff. buy the carrier. buy comcast, up 30% in a year. >> john? >> groupon has mobile figured out. up 20% in one year. >> it's a win for montreal. bank of montreal up 15% in a

year. >> this $10 minimum wage choice is a job killer. stay away from it. >> forget about minimum. you ow who's really, really going to take it to the come on. "cavuto on business." neil, ta it away. from taking off without a hitch to launching like a, well, son of a glitch -- son of a glitch. anyway, hi. good to have you. i'm neil cavuto. and leave it to a service all about tweets to make washington look like a bunch ofwits. twitter stock taking flight this week. you might have heard a thing or two about it. very little turbulence. all that preparation paying off on the big day. very different from washington's prep work for healt care law's big day, whiche haven't recovered from in all of these days. call it e difference between an ipo and an ip-no. ben stein,